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Aviation that we lost. Model range of aircraft The legacy of the “totalitarian” regime

Dmitry Kiva, the long-time president and general designer of the Antonov State Enterprise, now lives and works in Azerbaijan.

His resonant departure from the Company, overgrown with rumors and speculation (as he himself calls the Antonov State Enterprise) led to a leapfrog in the position of its head. In almost two years there is already a fourth president there, and the position of general designer has been completely abolished. In turn, the project to build An-178 transport aircraft in the interests of Baku, which D. Kiva is accompanying from the Azerbaijani side, could become a breakthrough in cooperation between the two countries. But will it happen? About this, as well as much more - from parting with the Antonov State Enterprise to assessments of the current state and prospects of the flagship of the domestic aviation industry and those responsible for it - in an exclusive interview with ZN.UA.

Dmitry Semenovich, tell us about your work in Azerbaijan - from the idea of moving, position and to current functional responsibilities...

- Today in Baku I work as an adviser to the president of the Azerbaijani commercial aviation company Silk Way, as well as an adviser to the head of the main state airline AZAL.

Azerbaijan relatively recently got involved in very ambitious projects, which ideally should lay the foundations and become platforms for the development of the national aviation industry. One of these, of course, was considered a contract with Ukraine for the construction of ten An-178 transport aircraft. When in 2016, not entirely by my own free will, I found myself in a creative search, I learned about the Azerbaijani side’s interest in my services, after weighing all the pros and cons, I accepted the offer from Baku. There were still, you know, the strength and desire to work in my specialty... Over time, the work was not limited to just the An-178 project. Azerbaijan is interested in consulting services on other aircraft of the An line, primarily the An-124 Ruslan, as well as on transport aircraft of other brands, which, due to my competence, I have to work with.

- Why is the An-178 mentioned in the past tense? Or it seemed to me? Tell us about the current state of the project.

- It all really began with the An-178 and had concretely tangible prospects. A contract was signed under which Baku transferred $1 million in advance to Antonov. Separately, I would like to emphasize that Azerbaijan was preparing for the subsequent organization and adaptation of assembly production at its own facilities. This would be a real breakthrough, for both states.

However, in Kyiv, since 2016, the project began to stall; testing of the aircraft, work on its certification, etc. ceased. The program essentially stopped. Today it is clear that the aircraft that should be supplied to the Azerbaijani side simply will not be available.

- The contract initially provided for the equipment of the machines with Russian components. A price was agreed upon based on a batch of 10 aircraft, which was about $25 million per unit. A year ago, the Azerbaijani side received notification that the aircraft would be equipped with different equipment, but the price would already be almost $45 million. And this is despite the previously announced and the signed parameters, you see, is a completely different story.

But the break in military-technical cooperation with Moscow is an objective reason, expected and long overdue. Were such problems and risks really not clear from the start?

- They were clear, and they were calculated. It was envisaged that the necessary components for the Azerbaijani project would be supplied to Kyiv directly from Azerbaijan. That is, Baku purchases the necessary Russian components on its own, then supplies them to Kyiv, or subsequently uses them at its assembly facilities. The specifics were taken into account, the scheme seemed to be working, the final recipient was Azerbaijan, there was no violation of sanctions on the part of Kyiv.

Now, at the end of the day, the project with Russian participation has been suspended, the advance payment has been spent, deadlines have passed, and nothing has been done to replace Russian equipment.

Wait, not so long ago it was said by “Antonov” that Baku was sympathetic to Ukrainian problems regarding the refusal and replacement of Russian participation in the project. From the latter, it was announced that a general agreement had been concluded with the American company Aviall Services Inc. (Boeing Global Service group) as the most important step towards the resumption of mass production, and a single line called An-1X8 for the An-148/158/178 models?

- Am I really against it? There is no need to convince anyone, but I, of the need for cooperation with Western partners, preferably across the entire line of An aircraft - I will return to this later. But in the case of the Azerbaijani An-178 project, there are two points. First: Baku not so long ago noted in the relevant protocol that it is ready to consider the acquisition and adaptation of the production of aircraft at the level, in the configuration, in the price parameters that were provided for within the framework of the basic signed contract. And the second is much more difficult and more critical: the Antonov company in its current state is unlikely to be able to pull off this project.

So remarks about “a relationship with understanding” still remain routine diplomatic phrases, wishful thinking, nothing more.

The first argument is clear - Azerbaijan, after all, has the right to insist. Based on the second argument, your assessment looks completely apocalyptic. The An-178 is not a crude project; its passenger “big brothers” An-148/158 fly and have proven themselves quite well. To begin with, where did the figure of $45 million come from for the An-178 without Russian components?

- This should be asked from the new, now also former leaders of the Firm - Mikhail Gvozdev and his colleague and successor Alexander Kotsyuba. People began to manage the Company without having anything to do with Antonov, without professionally understanding how development is going on, how aircraft production works, or how the industry as a whole functions. People simply came for money, apparently having received a blessing from the very top... They brought with them about two hundred leaders of various levels, and not a single one of them was an aviation specialist. Gvozdev and Kotsyuba soon left, but all these people remained, and all in leadership positions - vice presidents, directors, etc.

The point is not in the announced price, the validity, or rather, the unreasonability of its overestimation, etc. “Antonov” personnel have left and are leaving en masse, and the best specialists are simply leaving abroad. To Europe, the USA, China, and some to Russia, by the way... And not only “for a long ruble,” believe me. People are fans of their business, they just want to grow, work in their specialty, have normal goals and objectives, as well as working conditions. When I talk about young specialists, I mean employees who are over thirty, and sometimes well over thirty. According to research conducted by the American company Boeing, an aviation specialist and designer, the level of competence is achieved on average at the age of 53 years. This is if after graduating from a specialized university, he constantly works in his specialty.

Our people, striving for competence, are leaving. The numbers are frightening: more than 4,000 thousand employees, including highly qualified specialists, have recently left the Firm. There were about 14 thousand people under me, now there are about 9000. So in this regard, the worst thing is that the point of no return may be passed.

Was the outflow of personnel a consequence of the restructuring of the industry, when Antonov became part of the state concern Ukroboronprom?

- I see no direct reasons for such parallels. Understand that it was not the change in administrative reassignment that became the main reason for the stagnation. Yes, the bureaucratic system of management, control, coordination of actions, etc. was reconfigured. But this, in principle, was previously at the level of the Ministry of Industrial Policy. It is not the matrix, not the structural vertical that is to blame... Staffing is another matter. Everything depends on the professional competence, wisdom, if you like, of the leader, and not on the sign with the position. After all, what happened in 2015? The company began to be managed by non-professionals, and above and below them - again non-professionals. All this has led to the fact that the Soviet thesis, which has become a meme, that “a milkmaid can lead the state,” in the case of “Antonov” no longer causes laughter. There is rather sadness and disappointment here. Judge for yourself: over the past three years there have been four new leaders of Antonov. God bless her - with turnover as such, but not one of them was involved in either the design of aircraft or their production. The current president, Alexander Donets, has long been involved in the operation of aircraft, but not in development or production.

And the “178th” aircraft is undoubtedly a very promising project, with its own unique market niche: between light transport aircraft such as the C295 and G27 and the world’s most popular aircraft in this segment, the C-130. The latter costs today about $100 million per unit - in a modernized form, with new engines, new avionics, and so on. We planned that the new An-178 would cost about 30-40 million dollars and would be able to occupy its niche in the market. Old An-12s require replacement, S-160s and S-130s in older versions are being sold out en masse. Azerbaijan's interest in the An-178 (and as a base model for the development of its own industry) spoke for itself.

- What are the consequences for Antonov and for Ukraine of the failure of the Azerbaijani contract?

- The advance will have to be returned in case of failure... How can you measure the image losses for the Company and for the state as a whole? It’s difficult and painful for me to talk about this... Let’s see how the situation develops. Let's hope, of course. But I see huge problems with the further implementation of this project. Two key problems are staff attrition and incompetent management. Plus the lack of resources to reformat the project in terms of modernization with Western equipment.

But with the An-132 it worked out for Saudi Arabia at one time. It worked there even with the adaptation of the engines...

- Correct example. But this work on the An-132 aircraft was mainly paid for by Saudi Arabia as the customer - this was initially its condition. Well, the Company was in a different state then.

I can tell you that based on experience with the An-132, a similar modernization of the An-178 will require about $120 million. The customer, represented by Azerbaijan, will not agree to this. The company does not have such own funds today, and the state is also unlikely to allocate such money for external orders.

In your opinion, could the basic format of the contract for the An-178 with Russian participation, which Azerbaijan still relies on, lead to the leakage of design documentation for the aircraft along the Kyiv-Baku-Russia route? The car is unique, Russian analogues are pouring in...

- Airplane documentation is not a picture, folder or flash drive. The entire set of documentation for the aircraft will not fit in this office. If you come across insinuations on this topic, then this is either incompetence or people who want to speculate on this topic. Appreciating your diplomacy as an interviewer, I will protect you from asking the question of a leak more harshly. ( Pause)

...I’m still here on the spot. I am Ukrainian, I was, I am and I will be, no matter how pretentious it may sound. My parents are buried in Ukraine. There are such concepts as honor and conscience. I worked at Antonov for 52 years, and I will never betray the interests of the Company. In fact, they offered me - and still offer me - to move to work in Russia, China, Europe...

There is no such threat as you asked about.

In the context of the break in military-technical cooperation with Moscow, the latest resonant topic was loud declarations about the Russian side’s plans to independently build An-124 Ruslan aircraft. Without “Antonov” and with the same name of the aircraft. How “legal” is this and is it technically feasible?

- Let's take it in order, with all aspects, so that there is no understatement later. Although, whoever wants to, will take the phrase out of context. I'm no stranger to this.

On the territory of Russia, back in Soviet times, serial production of the An-124 was mastered at the Ulyanovsk serial plant. All design documentation is available there. A license agreement was also concluded between the Ulyanovsk plant and the Antonov State Enterprise. The agreement is valid, no one tore it up.

No one can stop them from deciding to resume the series, and no one will forbid them to name the plane
An-124 “Ruslan”, add a letter or change the name. But it seems to me that they will not deviate from the old name. So they can, of course.

Let me give you a few examples from my personal experience so you can understand what I mean. The Chinese, many years ago, mastered the production of our An-24, called it MA60, modernized it and mass-produced it. We wrote complaints everywhere. With An-12 (Y-8), An-2 (Y-5) the picture is similar. They are still producing it, but all our complaints remain our problems.

Another example. Closer. In Poland, at one time, they began to produce our An-28 aircraft, calling it M28. Our complaints came to nothing. The answer from the Polish side was simple: we signed a contract with the USSR, it doesn’t exist now, the legal successor is Russia, and it has no claims against us. They called the car a different name - that's all. The Poles also certified the An-2 without us, without changing the name, by the way.

According to ICAO rules, any aviation manufacturer, developer or operator of an aircraft is controlled by the aviation administration of the state where it occurs. And for this she is directly responsible. Including, and above all, for flight safety. There are also rules according to which any organization can submit an appropriate application to the aviation administration of its state and even modernize the aircraft. What can I say, if some Ukrainian companies carried out modernization and various modifications to An aircraft without the Antonov company - the Ukrainian aviation administration gave the appropriate permissions. There are examples when our planes were registered in Moldova, received permits there, and there, on the spot, the flight life of the An-12 was extended without us, etc.

I personally have struggled with this more than once, because this is not only our business, but also an issue of flight safety, and, accordingly, the image of the Company. Wrote various letters to ICAO and other international organizations. It ended with me being awarded an ICAO diploma as a fighter for flight safety...

By the way, at one time, back in the USSR, I personally was the head of the testing and certification programs for An-124-100 aircraft. Among other things, he flew several times directly to the United States to resolve the issue of his clearance to fly with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The Americans really didn’t want to let this plane in. A series of meetings were held, all the necessary documents were demonstrated, and permission to fly to the USA for the Ruslans was obtained. The American negotiating team was led by Tony Broderick, then head of the US FAA. By the way, he came to our enterprise in Kyiv.

In general, responsibility always lies with the aviation authorities of the state that gives permission to operate the aircraft. Approaches to resolution may vary. Dot.

It's clear here. Will Russia pull out the project when in fact it is their design bureau “Ilyushin”, responsible for organizing the “Ruslanov” series?

But this is a completely different question - not from the category of “prohibit production” or “prohibit naming,” etc.

With sufficient resources, restore the production line, carry out equipment-related upgrades, purchase missing equipment abroad, take over and produce the aircraft. Moreover, having experience in mass production.

And here again two components of the issue emerge - financial and technical. Are the Russians ready to pour money into the series with an eye to the commercial market, and will such an aircraft be in demand at the resulting cost? Are there any orders for a commercial series, and what should the series be for such a machine to at least recoup its cost?

Or they will mass produce it in the interests of their Ministry of Defense, where such a machine, by the way, is very necessary. And here the concept “we won’t stand behind the price” is quite viable in Russian realities, it has worked repeatedly.

Now for the technical points. They do not have an engine for the An-124. Ukraine will not deliver for objective reasons. According to Western analogues - on the one hand, again, the sanctions regime, on the other hand, in the event of bypassing/lifting sanctions - will the Russian Ministry of Defense itself already agree to install Western engines on its aircraft? I emphasize that we are talking about mass production...

And now we have a more or less complete picture, and not an information background, which is sometimes more interesting to most media than the real essence of the issue...

Is it possible in principle to install Western engines on the An-124 - I ask in the light of the prospects of the project in the interests of Antonov and Ukraine?

This is not only possible, but also advisable. We have already said that at one time we decided to change the engines to Western analogues for the An-132, and with the help of a foreign customer we implemented such a project. Similar developments were carried out on engines for the An-124. In general, I consider the adaptation and installation of Western engines on An aircraft to be a completely justified decision that meets the interests of both Antonov and the Ukrainian aviation industry as a whole. This is a new level of cooperation and, accordingly, a new market.

If we talk about engines for Ruslans, we once conducted research to compare the parameters of D-18 engines produced by Motor Sich JSC with foreign analogues. And we got the following picture: in terms of key parameters - commercial load (transportation of which is ensured by installing engines at various distances), fuel consumption, time between overhauls, engine flight life, cost of maintaining airworthiness per unit time - in all these parameters the D-18 loses Western analogues average from 1.5 to 2 times. For example, in conditions of high temperatures ≥30 °C when flying at the same range, the load capacity with Western engines increases by 65%. All this is confirmed by specific figures, which I have repeatedly voiced at international conferences.

- Are Western partners ready for such cooperation on Antonov platforms?

- Western partners were ready. I note that we are not talking about new engines, but about used engines after major overhauls. Accordingly, the price would be more profitable than that of the D-18. Our correctness was confirmed by practice with the implementation of the An-132 project, where Canadian PW150 engines were installed.

Today, Ruslans are competitive solely due to the unique design and characteristics of the aircraft. Their quantity meets the demand of the commercial market. But if the market grows - and such a trend is visible - I am sure that both the series and the modernization of the An-124 must be carried out, focusing on Western engines. As an option: based on the An-124 there is modern aerodynamics, a reliable airframe, you can install modern digital equipment, Western engines, and make a modernized machine using the existing design base. And the plane would be unsurpassed. I think an investor would be found. After all, no one in the world today will be able to build an aircraft of this class from scratch in the foreseeable future.

- What's stopping you?

- Let's return to what I stated above. We need professionals in both negotiations and design and production issues. I won't repeat myself.

After all, we went through a lot at the Aviant serial plant, which previously - until 2009 - was independent. Oleg Shevchenko, who had previously worked at a glass factory in Konstantinovka, was appointed director there. After this, the plant practically stopped producing aircraft. But at the same time, the equipment for serial production of the An-124 aircraft was completely destroyed at the plant and scrapped. They don’t remember or talk about this today. Although the current president of Antonov, Alexander Donets, who at that time was also the director of the serial plant, should perfectly remember and understand what I’m talking about. The plant had more than $100 million in debt, and no aircraft were produced. Then, by decree of the Cabinet of Ministers, the debts were turned into bonds, and the plant was annexed to our Design Bureau. And we began to revive the plant, recruit people and produce aircraft. Although not much (5-10 aircraft per year), they began to do this. A backlog of aircraft, wings, fuselages was created, which after 2015 remained a backlog...

But what about the long-term cooperation on engines with the Zaporozhye enterprise Motor Sich? National manufacturer...

- But you can’t argue against technical parameters and against the market. Potential customers understand everything and are well versed in the state of affairs on the market. How much has Ukraine talked about cooperation with Western companies in high-tech segments? “Antonov” tried here and had prospects of becoming a locomotive. This is both a matter of certification and, in general, the promotion of aircraft on the international market. These are not slogans; everything is based on specific calculations. After all, for a very long time we took into account the interests of our main domestic partner - the Motor Sich company. For example, we did not fundamentally consider alternatives to the domestic D-436 engine for the An-148, which was not certified for flights in Europe. But we came to the conclusion that with this approach we are cutting off the prospects of our aircraft on the world market. It was necessary to make a decision - either wait until Motor Sich aircraft engines begin to comply, or reorient to Western analogues. And if the engine does not have a Western certificate, then the aircraft with such engines will not receive it either, and there are no prospects for the Western market.

I’ll repeat myself and say it straight out: I was in favor of changing domestic engines on the An line of cars. And we were ready to implement this.

At the same time, we were also always ready to install our engines. But we need a modern technical and economic level and Western certification.

Throughout the interview, your words one way or another show through - not so much resentment or anger, but bewilderment at the injustice of the events associated with your departure from the Antonov State Enterprise. It seems that this topic is unpleasant for you, but nevertheless, what happened then?

- Come on, I don’t have any resentment or, especially, any kind of gloating. I wouldn’t say a word, if the Company were developing, results would be visible, and the stagnation that has been occurring in recent years would not be observed.

Over many years, working as the president and general designer of Antonov, I have experienced everything, believe me. From behind-the-scenes intrigues to direct threats and provocations...

My care is a well-known topic. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, when he was prime minister, tried to remove me from the Company in 2014. He was helped in this by, among others, the famous businessman and deputy Nikolai Martynenko, who, by the way, was once a Komsomol organizer at the ASTC. Antonov. It happens. Also, the president and owner of Motor Sich JSC, Vyacheslav Boguslaev, personally lobbied for my departure from Prime Minister Yatsenyuk. Apparently, he could not come to terms with our plans to adapt Western engines to An aircraft. Let this remain on his conscience. The company was transferred to Ukroboronprom, and I calmly continued to work. The team stood up for me, they even brought riot police to our fence by bus. Then I managed to survive. This is unforgettable...

Then Petro Poroshenko and his ally Oleg Gladkovsky personally got down to business. This was just at a time when the company was working hard on creating a new An-178 aircraft. We have been working on this project since 2008. And finally, on May 7, 2015, the plane made its first flight. And already on June 12, 2015, I wrote a letter of resignation from the position of president of the company “of my own free will.” None of the then managers explained to me the reason for my “leaving” and none of them thanked me for more than 50 years of work at the company. How did this happen? Summons to the prosecutor's office began to appear to investigators on particularly important issues. It would be nice just me - I’m no stranger to it. So they began to jerk the son, wife, mother-in-law, father-in-law. Charges were brought forward that, according to the non-public assessments of the same investigators, did not even amount to administrative violations. Oleg Gladkovsky personally suggested that I write a statement of my own free will to resign from the post of President of the Company so that these challenges would stop. It was said: “You will be engaged in science and technology, you will remain the general designer, and others will manage the finances and the company.” That's exactly what I did. In the end, “Antonov” is not my property, if the state needs it so much, so be it.

When I wrote a statement, the very next day they issued an order to appoint Mikhail Gvozdev as acting president of the Antonov State Enterprise. I signed the order to hire him along with my resignation letter. He needed to be on staff. And the next day - it was Saturday, by the way - Petro Poroshenko came to the enterprise to introduce the new leader. He came up to me, shook my hand and said: “Thank you for your understanding”...

Then the new presidents - Gvozdev and Kotsyuba - simply began to destroy the Firm. Their activities, I am sure, will still be assessed. While continuing to work as a general designer, I directly told them that they were doing, to put it mildly, “the wrong thing.” After all, even without the position of president, I could see where it was “leaking” and for what reason. At my own request, I refused to resign from the position of general designer. So these guys didn’t come up with anything else but to simply eliminate this position. There was no other way they could get rid of me. Then came offers from Russia, Azerbaijan, Europe, China...

Going back further: what specifically would you highlight from the results, from the groundwork that was left behind at the time of your departure? Otherwise you have to read different things...

- In the ten years of my work (from 2005 to 2015), a lot has actually been done. Dry statement:

The An-148 and An-158 passenger aircraft were created and certified, and their mass production was organized;

The An-178 cargo aircraft was created, which made its first flight in May 2015;

The An-70 aircraft has been tested and put into service in Ukraine;

A deep modernization of the An-124-100 aircraft was carried out to ensure its operation throughout the world (An-124-100M-150 version) with an increased payload from 120 to 150 tons;

For the first time, Antonov received a European certificate (for the An-26 aircraft);

A contract was signed with Saudi Arabia and work began on the creation of the An-132 aircraft;

A number of negotiations were held with Turkey on the joint creation and production in Turkey of a passenger aircraft based on the An-158; a presentation of the aircraft to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was held in Ankara; it was planned to install Western engines on the aircraft (working name TAN-158, “Turkish An”);

Promising contracts with China (for Y-20 and An-178 aircraft) were signed and implementation began;

A contract was signed with Azerbaijan for the An-178 aircraft;

Work has begun on the creation of unmanned aerial vehicles;

The highest average salary in the industry and among industrial enterprises in Kyiv was at Antonov...

I repeat, I am not indifferent, to put it mildly, to the fate of the Company. I had to work closely with its founder Oleg Konstantinovich Antonov - first as the leading designer, and then as his deputy. O.K. Antonov is an outstanding personality and world-class designer, Teacher. On my initiative, the Company was named “Antonov”. And I would very much like those people who are involved in the Antonov company today not to disgrace this glorious name.

If everything was fine there, I would only be happy and calm. And over the past four years, not a single new aircraft has been made. The An-132 prototype, which was laid under my supervision, has been completed. For the An-148/158, only the old backlog is demonstrated. Show where the new fuselages are, where the new wings are. No this. And the deplorable state in which the Company is. And God is my witness, I have nothing to do with this.

- Would you come back if the opportunity presented itself? Correct the situation...

- I feel very comfortable working in Azerbaijan, and my family feels comfortable here. I will always be grateful to this country and the people who warmly welcomed me here. The leadership of Azerbaijan is thinking about the future of the country, including the development of the nation’s intellect. There is an understanding of the need to transition to the development of high-tech industries and production, because oil and gas resources do not last forever. You can feel it.

I remember the phrase “never say never” well. But I hardly can anymore. There is no passion and energy with which I worked and fought for 52 years.

- But we won’t promise...

- Under the current government, I will definitely not return to the Company.

Vladimir KOPCHAK, head of the South Caucasus branch of the Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies (Tbilisi-Baku-Tbilisi)

[Anonymous from the address 188.166.78.* ]

RUSSIAN PROVERB - Right now I would like to have tea with a bun, but go to the stove with the fool. UKRAINIAN PROVERB - Let's get some bacon and ham, and put some damsel in the little fish tank. GEORGIAN PROVERB - Now I would like wine with a barbecue, and to the mountains with a donkey.

[Anonymous from the address 207.244.89.*]

178.62.192.* ] Poland has had a significant hand in the plight of Ukraine. Back in the 90s, it was Poland that was the first to lay a gas pipeline bypassing Ukraine. It was Poland that bought the pozreots at a low price so that they could touch the udders of the Muscovite trucks while the Poles brutally bargained with Moscow for Russian, Central Asian and Chinese transit. As a result, Ukraine is in trouble and Polish road workers receive another 40 billions of gratuitous European aid to expand the roads that are suffocating under the toll of transit. It was Poland that ideally organized shuttles at the border, practically eliminating Ukrainian customs duties on small household appliances. Poland today is number one in the slavery of Ukrainian migrant workers. And let us modestly suppress the rumors about whose artillery batteries stood on Mount Karachun when the crests themselves were not yet ready for this.

[Anonymous from the address 188.187.48.*]

yes, salary we get it, but not for that. it's so much fun for the soul, laughing at Independence Square

[Anonymous from the address 46.133.76.* ]

It’s cool that they live in Rashka, write insanity all day long and probably still get paid.